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[TheVajinator WANTED $9 Outlaw]

Question: Why do so many people think that TRUE random number generator exist if generation of true random numbers remains unsolved problem in computer science? The reason I’m interested in that is because so many casinos talk about the ways they randomly generate numbers (or their providers) however no one seems to dare explaining the reality of the situation and since a good chunk of information is usually missing in their “promotions” or “advertisements” it pretty much looks like a sham to anyone who’s familiar with the theory.

I got curious about entire thing when I was visiting Russia not so long ago. Basically I’ve met a person who runs gambling services and he showed me live how the system could be manipulated, as a test we did this (have in mind that this was done on test server not an actual provider):

1. I registered and he dropped some money into my account.

2. There is a game which pools the prize from various people. For example person who bets 1000 has greater win chances than person who bets 100 and person who bets 100 has greater chances than person who bets 1 and so on and on.

3. My job was to bet minimum, since it was in rubles I cannot recall the exact amount, but it was below 1 euro. My winning chances were shown as about 0,4% and he told me he will make me win entire pool.

4. I actually hit with 0,4%.

Basically admin (known as super account) can decide who wins and who losses.

This demonstration got me interested even more about how the thing works online. What can guarantee that casinos are not doing that knowing how they usually avoid any public audits and etc. ? A business which had nothing to hide would let everyone walk in and out to just get recognition of how clear they conduct themselves giving them insanely good publicity.

I know some of you now probably think “well, duh casinos can’t do that they have providers who are separate business from them, they just provide their services to casinos”. Since there is no true random number generator, what can prove providers are not in control of the outcome in the games?

Also I had a russian article about certain provider doing exactly what I’m talking about if I’ll find it I will try translate it to English and give you a read, that was quite interesting situation about casino and provider collaborating in order to squeeze money from their customers.

Note that’s not me sitting with a tin foil hat and trying to push some sort of “conspiracy” on you, but it’s quite possible looking at all the facts and possibilities of algorithms.

What’s your general opinion on this?

[scottj130208 WANTED $22 Outlaw]

I personally don’t think rng actually exists put it this way if you try rainbow riches pick n mix and try big bets on Leps it always spins round to a shitty low number 1 or 2 virtually all the time and it’s an absolute miracle if you get up to 150 or 300 X played this thousands of times and always behaves the same seems like the rng is rigged in the casino s favour

[Haz40 WANTED $1,166 Outlaw]

Think this ones for bio hazard ??

[NOMAD RED 7 WANTED $12 Outlaw]

A very interesting post. Food for thought to be honest. I only play on UK sites to minimise the risk of the casino/site being a bit scammy. I would hope that the legislation with regards to online gambling would stop some of this in the UK. I have recently spoken about my live winnings compared to my online winnings showing a rather large difference in favour of land based play. The one online provider i have been struggling at makes my spider senses tingle. I would like to have enough data to support my thoughts, but sadly i do not. So i can only go with my gut feeling and that is to play with caution online. The weird thing is that one decent win will change my mind about playing online… such is the gambling life…lol :). Enjoyed the thread,than you.

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

They say the RNG works with things like white noise and because that is said to be random, that is the core of the generator. However the constraint is the house edge RTP.

So it’s in fact bullshit no matter what because the RTP has to precede the RNG.

Zynga, makers of Zynga Poker claimed to use a double shuffle. Sure, they might…. but think about that when it comes to how useless the first shuffle is or must be, to need a second one and how efficient it is in total maybe some would say a third or 100th is needed.

[chipnroll WANTED $17 Blocked]

its proven a true rng cant exist if its chosen by a computer its impossible play any slot online on min stake will play happy as hell chucking out bonuses big wins the rest of it up it to £3 a spin it will die instantly and ul get 25 dead spins no way random

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Eugh. We’ve had this discussion before in relation to slots. Games under licence from the UK Gambling Commission are acceptably random in accordance with expected outcome of regular statistical analysis. Yes, computers can only generate pseudo random nimbers, which means the output number is the result of a mathematical algorithm applied to an input number. So if you know both the algorithm and the seed (input) number, you would be able to calculate the “random” output. What slots use are either software or hardware based cryptographically secure pseudo random numbers. The difference is that rather than the input seed being based on the current time, it’s instead based on noise factors which are impossible to know in advance. This might be device noise from the computer itself (think stuff like number of running processor threads, temperature, open file handles) or in hardware RNGs, indeterminate quantum phenomena such as whether or not a photon passes through a partially reflective mirror. The resulting computer calculation is still pseudo random, but it means the outcome is acceptably random from the point of view of statistical analysis. It’s random for all practical purposes. No, casinos cannot control the games, choose your RTP, or decide whether you win or lose. The long term theoretical RTP and house edge is a matter of game design, e.g. layout of the reels.

[Ga Gamblingconsultant WANTED $6 Outlaw]

Sounds like what you’re talking about is all the dodgy cs:go gambling sites that were unlicensed and rigged there was a few streamers caught owning these sites and being on Skype being told the outcome of the next spin. I trust the UK gambling industry but honestly who knows!

[Biohazard WANTED $675 Outlaw]

@argyl53 has summed it up nicely. I don’t think anything else really needs saying.

If you stick to the reputable, UK casinos, you shouldn’t face these sort of issues.

Also, I like that this topic is sprouting up the debate around randomness. It’s one of my favourite topics in life. There are very few (if, arguably, any) things that are truly random. We consider things like a dice roll to be “random”, but it’s not even close. We just assign the term random to things where our brains cannot feasibly process the variables involved.

Quantum mechanics has an interesting take on this topic if anyone is interested in reading further into it all.

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

Seems to me that’s trying to say the RTP is last in line when we all know it’s first in line. I agree on the faked random factor but that is dictated by the RTP. The RTP of course is the profit margin more than it is the customers guarantee.

[NOMAD RED 7 WANTED $12 Outlaw]

@Biohazard, nothing to do with gambling and topical at the moment … but surely snowflakes are random?  Strange why i think this, probably some lecturer mentioned it at some hung over lecture. 🙂 Hope you know the answer, it could be an old wives tale like ‘It’s to cold to snow’…lol

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

This one aint for me early on a Sunday morning ?

Interesting though.

All i know for certain is that if a computer is used for the RNG then the results can never be truly random.

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

All i know for certain is that if a computer is used for the RNG then the results can never be truly random.

Yes, this is correct. Computers are by definition deterministic state machines. They run algorithms and if given the same input, an algorithm will always produce the same output. But the input to the algorithm can be truly random. If for example it’s based on measuring the intervening time it takes for two Cesium 137 isotopes to decay (a natural sub-atomic level event which is truly random), there is no way to know in advance what number will be given to the computer with which to produce a pseudo-random number. It cannot be manipulated, it cannot be foreseen, thus the result can be considered random.

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

argyl53 wrote:

All i know for certain is that if a computer is used for the RNG then the results can never be truly random.

Yes, this is correct. Computers are by definition deterministic state machines. They run algorithms and if given the same input, an algorithm will always produce the same output. But the input to the algorithm can be truly random. If for example it’s based on measuring the intervening time it takes for two Cesium 137 isotopes to decay (a natural sub-atomic level event which is truly random), there is no way to know in advance what number will be given to the computer with which to produce a pseudo-random number. It cannot be manipulated, it cannot be foreseen, thus the result can be considered random.

And all of it is governed by the RTP.

 

[Tu Turnip166 WANTED $0 Outlaw]

Roulette + magnets = rigged

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