RNGs (the sensible discussion version)

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)
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  • #47898
    blacko1974 WANTED $248
    Spectator

    One of the best posts I have read my friend!. Most gamblers (including myself) turn a blind eye to the basic mathematics that slots adhere to, it is too easy to point an accusing finger and accuse a game of being “rigged” purely because the odds haven’t worked in your favour.

    If Albert Einstein accused that the only way to beat a roulette wheel was to “steal from it” then a daft little fucker like myself has no chance.

     

    Thank you.

    1
    #47899
    Anonymous WANTED $81
    Inactive

    Also need to add that BTG are my favourite provider and I like WWTBAM, Chilli, Bonanza, DHV more than other slots. I defended WWTBAM I think twice in another thread and submitted a big win with 400x in the base game. I am not hating on BTG or WWTBAM, I like both

    #47901
    argyl53 WANTED $419
    Outlaw

    Off a quick read (sorry on my phone), looks like everything you’ve said is spot on.

    The only thing I’d add in relation to online slots is that there is no requirement for them to be “true random” (which as you point out, is not a capability any computer has since they are by definition deterministic state machines). They are required to be “acceptably random”, which means they play within what a statistical analysis would consider random as per your comments on standard deviation.

    Fact is, using hardware RNGs to seed a pseudo RNG, or by using device entropy as a software CSPRNG, we can simulate a million coin tosses and get an almost exactly 50/50 split between heads and tails. That may not be “true random”, but it’s close enough in every practical sense.

    #47903
    blacko1974 WANTED $248
    Spectator

    Slightly “off topic” but could I imply that BTG develop games to be more and more of a high variance level where the mathematics balance itself out but the player is ultimately chasing a dream. I hear a lot about potential with these games but rarely see the end result.

    #47907
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    Gunner, as far as I am concerned there are two important definitions of rigged.

    1. Rigged and lies about RTP

    2. Rigged and does not lie about RTP

    I admitted I am in no way saying WWTBAM is rigged (1) because that would take evidence and while JB feels it was rigged (1) for him, which I can understand, if RTP is balanced over 100,000 or 1m spins, there’s no way JB can satisfactorily state rigged (1)

    I am however clearly stating that these slots are rigged (2) by the RTP and the remainder profit. I am clearly stating that anything random going on, in the slot is governed overall by that rigging. I think others are looking at it backwards thinking random dictates when that RTP is paid when in fact for a business model to be viable, the opposite has to be true.

    Let’s look at a new slot release.

    X Slot is released in 1,000 stores. Would it not be fair to say this is maybe the one place random is given it’s first task of randomly letting some pay at an initial loss for the vendor and some pay gaining a profit ? Would it also be fair to say we don’t know if even at that initial stage, there is an overall loss or profit however, the whole thing is still governed by RTP/Profit and random is allowed to play with those boundaries.

    JB was happy to agree the genuine coin toss as a business would never get a deal on dragons den. Strangely enough, those who were trying to discredit with how it is said to be, by law, avoided that unequivocal “I’m out”.

    Random as the ruler guarantees nothing. RTP/Profit makes the business viable. I’m not sure why anyone would think otherwise. This does not negate random playing a part but it does demonstrate viably, who is boss.

    I have to say it is also seriously unfair to (whomever this concerns) try and dictate who should or shouldn’t be able to speak on the matter, regardless of what they have to say. Stating “no one else needs to speak” is just wrong. Additionally, being upset that the debate has been brought up again doesn’t prove anything. Likewise, I hope I didn’t resort to insults although I do not like being talked down to, whether I am right or not and I will not discuss this further. People here generally do not know me personally so the snide remarks trying to look like banter will not pass)

    #47909
    Anonymous WANTED $81
    Inactive

    @Mr B – I liked your comment about Dragon’s Den in the other thread and I liked the thing that @haz40 was saying. Can’t remember what that was but I agreed with it lol

    I think what you are saying is that no matter how it is calculated, the RTP is “forced” in some way. If that’s what you mean, I agree with that too

    #47911
    argyl53 WANTED $419
    Outlaw

    In reference to Mr B’s rather unusual definition of rigged, my position was that you imagine a bet on the outcome of a (fair and entirely random) roll of a dice, where numbers 1-4 pay nothing, 5 is money back and 6 is 2.5 times your bet back.

    That game can in no way be accused of being rigged under any sensible definition, yet it is a profit yielding game for the vendor with a mere 58% long term RTP. It is also exactly how online slots work, just a much more simplified example, equivalent to a single reel, single win line slot.

     

    #47912
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    Yes that is pretty much it @ gunner

    #47915
    argyl53 WANTED $419
    Outlaw

    In reference to “Dragon’s Den”, if the business model was “it’s a coin toss at £1 a go but if you win you get £1.80 not £2”, that would be a profitable business to invest in with a 10% house edge / 90% long term RTP. But it’s still completely random and not rigged.

    #47916
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    argyl53 wrote:

    In reference to Mr B’s rather unusual definition of rigged, my position was that you imagine a bet on the outcome of a (fair and entirely random) roll of a dice, where numbers 1-4 pay nothing, 5 is money back and 6 is 2.5 times your bet back.

    That game can in no way be accused of being rigged under any sensible definition, yet it is a profit yielding game for the vendor with a mere 58% long term RTP. It is also exactly how online slots work, just a much more simplified example, equivalent to a single reel, single win line slot.

     

    See Argyl, how I defined it is just normal to me, not unusual. However….. the similarity in your dice game is that you have dictated the RTP with the prizes which is done before any random comes into play thus agreeing with me that RTP is the boss. You set the RTP / prize fund and then let random do it’s thing. It doesn’t matter how much of the “game” a RNG is allowed to play with, the RTP is still head cheer leader.

    #47917
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    argyl53 wrote:

    In reference to “Dragon’s Den”, if the business model was “it’s a coin toss at £1 a go but if you win you get £1.80 not £2”, that would be a profitable business to invest in with a 10% house edge / 90% long term RTP. But it’s still completely random and not rigged.

    and again you have stopped random, changed the prizes and then let random work after. Random isn’t involved until the coin is tossed thus RTP comes first. I’m not sure how much more simple and clear it can be put.

    #47920
    argyl53 WANTED $419
    Outlaw

    I still have no idea what you are defining rigged to mean, but I’m certainly happy to agree to disagree at this point…I’ve explained my position and am happy you’ve understood what I’m saying. I just don’t get what you mean by RTP comes before random…the only event in this scenario is a random coin toss. The RTP is calculated from the prize levels.

    #47925
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    Rigged : meaning someone has added rigging, ropes or controls, levers. Rigged. Random means no control.

    #47928
    argyl53 WANTED $419
    Outlaw

    Right, so we all agree slots have a long term RTP which is less than 100% and therefore over the long term, make a profit for their vendors. We agree that this is by design of the game. We agree each individual spin is totally random. What is it we’re disagreeing on?

    #47929
    Mr B WANTED $395
    Blocked

    The fact that RTP/Profit governs random. I say it does, you won’t.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)